Curse

Improvavel · Jul 08, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Improvavel

You must micro Discord for best effects, heroes sometimes refuse to cast Discord when they should.

Discord works exactly like people have described here, very fast kills, it's amazing. Try running it like people suggest here, you will see.

If I hadn't run discord with an AP caller I could probably buy what people are saying, but I have so I know it isn't like that.

Yes, you can score a kill in 3 secs and after the first kill you will start to have to micro discord to score those kills or you wont get them. People in here insist otherwise.

Also you won't be able to do your chain all the time due to energy constrains, like losing 14 energy every 2-3 secs. So you will start to lose some of the damage.

And if you don't micro it, it gets a lot slower. People are saying they don't need to micro to achieve that efficiency.

I say they need to micro it or you can forget those perfect 3 secs kills.

And then people insist they can actually do all that, without micro and still cast support, while keeping all the damage, the speed skill, blad di blah.

No, they can't do that without micro.

And since they cant do all that, the absurd made up superiority people are claiming AP caller sin has over melee sin is denied.

And if you can spend all your time microing discord in areas that it will take 1-2 minutes more without micro, I just can't be bothered except in areas that are hard.

And microing discord, forcing your heroes to cast it every 2-3 secs don't give them much time to cast other skills, does it?

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Improvavel

I think nobody in this thread claimed that you dont have to micro Discord, I think it's perfectly clear that you should because heroes sometimes refuse to cast the spell.

Looks like an attempt to save face by squeezing out another argument.

AP Caller is just the fastest at applying the requrements and ability to dish out large ammount of damage fast improves you killing speeds greatly.

Tenebrae · Jul 08, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

My averege killing time is 3 seconds, same for my entire guild and every person in this thread aoart from you. Maybe, we just happened to be those 30% of godly players but by a more realistic scenario you would have to give up your left arm.

You are just making that up ( bolded part , ofc i dont care about your guildies )and then say that I dont have nothing to back it up . If i have 0 you have -4 dude , face it. For god sake you are calling ppl that uses APdiscordway "godly players" , i pity you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I assumed you havent tried AP Caller Discords because you denied that this is possible, but now I think that something might be wrong with your playstyle or builds. ^^

Hahahaha this one actually made me laugh , "playstyle" and "APcaller Discords" in the same sentence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Saying that I'm wrong without anything to back it up won't go a long way.

Saying that i have nothing to back it up without proofs doesnt make it true ( yeah , i parabol you lol ) , it only proofs that either you havent read the entire thread or you dont know maths / understand a words anyone said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

You have ignored that completely, just like any other evidence, so who is really retreating eh?

Yes you are , now you started using "ifs" and "arounds" and you are ignoring maths , the only absolute truth.

You know what ? is useless bothering with someone that actually thinks that playing AP caller + Discordway requires skill ( lol @ godly players hahaha ) and doesnt even know the meaning of AVERAGE .

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Tenebrae

No, I'm not making anything up, if you dont want to see something it doesn't mean it's not there.
Have a look through this thread and you will se that even your buddy Improvavel admits the times are true.
You also should improve your reading comprehension. You say that 70% of players cant kill in 3 seconds with AP Caller + Discords, then the other 30% must be very good.

Quote:

Saying that i have nothing to back it up without proofs doesnt make it true ( yeah , i parabol you lol ) , it only proofs that either you havent read the entire thread or you dont know maths / understand a words anyone said.

The proof is right there in your posts. For example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by You

"There are so SO SO MANY situations where the chain times vary that if you want to say a number , saying the LOWEST full APchain kill time is so untrue that its almost a lie ."

Example?

Why do you consider 3 seconds lowest, example of personal expirience?

Quote:

Originally Posted by You

Not only me , there are about 3 or 4 ppl in this thread that thinks the opposite .

Names?

Link?

What exactly is their opinion on this?

I also understand what people say very well, can't say the same about you though.

I'm not ignoring maths at all but I disagree with your calculations because they dont bring variables into consideration, even the obvious ones like energy regen.

Yes, I believe that AP Caller requres skill, at least none less than MS/DB. I dont think that it is as effortless as teddy.
I ask you to prove me wrong now, I gave you the reasons why I have this point of view, give me the reasons why you have the opposite.

Improvavel · Jul 08, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Improvavel

Looks like an attempt to save face by squeezing out another argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Hopefully all the people that are arguing for the insane speed of Disco kills are all microing Disco, right?
You do know that without doing that a lot of the things said here are just a nice theory?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

No it is not, and that pretty much just shows YOUR own fail. On my necro, I cast the full chain all the time (AP YMLAD, EVAS, FH!). When I tried micro, I am usually not able to cast the full chain before the target dies.

This is not theorycraft, but logic to back up experience. In other words, if you have trouble killing without micro-ing, YOU fail not discordway.

I'm tired of people making stuff up.

All this mambo jambo "I'm a good player and you suck".

Grow up.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Improvavel

Nobody makes stuff up, I am sure everybody knows how to micro Discord and know that it should be microed.

Also you ask people to grow up but accusing people of lieing or making stuff up every time you hear something you dont want to isn't very grown up behaviour in the first place, hypocricy I'm telling ye.

Improvavel · Jul 08, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Improvavel

I think nobody in this thread claimed that you dont have to micro Discord, I think it's perfectly clear that you should because heroes sometimes refuse to cast the spell.

Looks like an attempt to save face by squeezing out another argument.

Read my post above.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Improvavel

I dont understand what youre trying to say but no one makes stuff up.

Improvavel · Jul 08, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Improvavel

I dont understand what youre trying to say but no one makes stuff up.

Didn't u say that noone was saying that you don't have to micro discord?

There one person at least saying you don't have to micro discord.

AtomicMew · Jul 09, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I'm tired of people making stuff up.

All this mambo jambo "I'm a good player and you suck".

Grow up.

No u grow up. Q.Q

What Upier was saying was bullcrap. I haven't manual'ed discord for probably over a year now. He was basically saying if u dont manual ur being subpar. Sorry, I then concluded 1+1=2.

Improvavel · Jul 09, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

No u grow up. Q.Q

What Upier was saying was bullcrap. I haven't manual'ed discord for probably over a year now. He was basically saying if u dont manual ur being subpar. Sorry, I then concluded 1+1=2.

You and cupcake can settle your differences then, since he is saying you need to micro it.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 09, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

In general for the most part your heroes are clever enough to cast Discord on a called target without microing.

It can be more efficient to bind Discord though and micro it as they will prioritise the spike that bit faster at the expense of other actions that may be very well keeping your party alive.

Improvavel · Jul 09, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

In general for the most part your heroes are clever enough to cast Discord on a called target without microing.

It can be more efficient to bind Discord though and micro it as they will prioritise the spike that bit faster at the expense of other actions that may be very well keeping your party alive.

Basically what Tenebrae and I have been saying all time: it isn't all roses for one side and all nightmare for the other.

And since an AP caller and a melee work in a different way it is possible, by going different avenues, reach a very similar end result.

AtomicMew · Jul 09, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Basically what Tenebrae and I have been saying all time: it isn't all roses for one side and all nightmare for the other.

And since an AP caller and a melee work in a different way it is possible, by going different avenues, reach a very similar end result.

That's true, except that's not what you have been "saying all time." I don't know about tenebrae, since I don't even read his posts anymore, but you quite clearly stated that melee is better or equivalent to AP caller in all situations, which is clearly false.

Improvavel · Jul 09, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's true, except that's not what you have been "saying all time." I don't know about tenebrae, since I don't even read his posts anymore, but you quite clearly stated that melee is better or equivalent to AP caller in all situations, which is clearly false.

It is better or equivalent to the AP caller of the same profession.

And I don't see why is God Sword warrior, an Imbagon, a MS/DB inferior to some AP callers.

Are you saying any physical profession is inferior to the AP caller?

The main advantage the AP caller has is to control the requirements for discord, but unless you keep microing your heroes - basically turning them in Discord spammers, cause if you do your chain every 2 seconds (gods know with what energy, if you aren't a necro) they aren't casting anything else are they? - that advantage is quite fleeting, because then enemies are hexed with AoE hexes like shadow of fear and AoE conditions like enfeebling blood.

Sincerely I prefer a team that will cast enfeebling blood and shadow of fear while spamming a bit less discord, then one that just spams discord.

AtomicMew · Jul 09, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The main advantage the AP caller has is to control the requirements for discord, but unless you keep microing your heroes - basically turning them in Discord spammers, cause if you do your chain every 2 seconds

Ah... I think I see the problem. You are thinking you need to micro discord with an AP caller.

You do not need all your discorders to use discord to do your chain. A full chain alone does 250 (shouts) + ~200 (EVAS) = ~450 damage. Let's say your target has 600 HP (for the record, charr have even less). You do not need all heroes to use discord on your target = 300 damage, because that's overkill. Even just 1 discord + random hench/AoE/degen etc. is enough to kill off the target.

After the first couple targets, the remaining targets have already taken damage from AoE, and don't even need a full chain most of the time. A lot of the time,you can even get away with just AP + FH! to kill instantly, refilling your energy as well.

Do you understand now?

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 09, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Improvavel

I still fail to see where the people you have quoted denied occasional need to micro Discord. I also don't understand why you see this as a downside of AP Caller + Discords exclusively because it's the same story as with Melee + Discord. Unreal Havoc has summarised this very well in his post.

It is also true that Discords will sometimes spike on their own, mine spike on their own very often I only force spikes when they start healing too much or go on a minion raising frenzy. Thats also the reason why I fearz giving them to much other stuff like melee hexes ect.

Now, the builds you have listed all havent got a very good burst damage, they also have to gimp their bars to become callers. They dont have a ranged unblockable spike like AP Caller, they cant make a kd lock as effectively, it takes them more time to apply all the Discord requrements.
Two of these builds are also melee that means they have to run to the target first before they can assist the spike not to mention that all of those builds are very voulnerable to block, adrenaline and shout denial on top of mass hex and condition removal.
So for Discord physical builds are inferior to AP Caller.

I also dont understand why you want a team that won't spam Discord as often, I really dont.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 09, 2009, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Another thing to think about is that damage is also caused to foes through the AoE effects of Putrid Bile and Death Nova (which supplies a condition aswell) and maybe Mark of Pain if you bring it aswell. Not to mention nobody has even taken into account any damage done by supporting henchmen or players.

You can get a cleaner spike by microing Discord but sometimes I find it more beneficial to let the heroes do their own thing unless it's a situation of urgency.

Tenebrae · Jul 09, 2009, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Ah... I think I see the problem. You are thinking you need to micro discord with an AP caller.

If you want to dream with a 3.5sec kill in a dream situation hell yes , thats a fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You do not need all your discorders to use discord to do your chain. A full chain alone does 250 (shouts) + ~200 (EVAS) = ~450 damage. Let's say your target has 600 HP (for the record, charr have even less). You do not need all heroes to use discord on your target = 300 damage, because that's overkill. Even just 1 discord + random hench/AoE/degen etc. is enough to kill off the target.

Fake statements :
- All ppl playing discord AP caller has max norn rank ( otherwise theres no way in hell you are doing 250 dmg , adding DW ofc )
- All ppl playing discord AP caller has max vang rank ( lol at a lvl 16 Eva against a lvl 30 foe )
- "EVAS does 200 dmg". At MAX VANG RANK eva does 32+30+40x2 = ignoring armor damage + 2 normal hits against a lvl 26-30 foe ( pfff ) about 10 x 2 = 20 . So REAL damage at BEST = 162 . If rank is lower damage is less than 150.
- EVAS chain is not an instagib, takes 1 second cast , 1/2 shadow step , 1sec Iron palm ( 3/4 + aftercast ) , 1 second fox fangs ( no IAS , aftercast 1/2 ) and 1 more second to NTS.

Yes, if even in a dream situation where the rest of the H/H helps and on mid EVA chain target is below 50% , use FH and then EVA ends chain and target dies , the chain takes 4 seconds and assuming you dont have 0 ms ping ( wich is true ), the REAL FULL AP CHAIN killing time is 4+ secs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

After the first couple targets, the remaining targets have already taken damage from AoE, and don't even need a full chain most of the time. A lot of the time,you can even get away with just AP + FH! to kill instantly, refilling your energy as well.

It also happens with any other caller using that build , or any other build with some AoE on it , proofs nothing.

Making assumptions and taking best scenarios to give an average time and claim "that build kills in 3 sec" is so untrue that is almost a lie . Assumptions taken :
- Max norn and vang rank
- instagib eva chain
- no healing on the target
- desired HM foe lvl to suit the AP damage chain
- no hex removal on the target
- no condition removal on the target
- targets can always be knocked down
- no interrupts on you or none of your discord heroes
- without microing discord , it works at same speed
- no lag and no ping
- D.heroes not doing nothing but spiking
- D.heroes on foe range at the EXACT time you make the call

You have been exposed , the show is over . Maybe you dont think that saying 5 or 3 secs matters but you are shortening your times by 40% , soz dude , busted.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 09, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Tenebrae

You have entitled your clacutions with "wrong statements", well, they fit this title very well.

You shouldn't judge the length of the spike by length of the EVAS chain because the foe is down before the sin gets to the end of it's chain. That already means the spike is shorter than ~3.25 seconds.
If you read what people write more carefully then you wouldve noticed that traversc said the same.

FYI EVAS doesn't shadow step, it just appears at the target so theres no aftercast. I have done some testing of this skill on different mobs to see how much damage it's attacks realisticly do. The statistics were 32 for palm (obviously), ~40-51 for Fang, ~55-65x2 for Tails, in total thats ~180-210 damage, thats ~200 damage like traversc said.
Like I said, you never did any research and dont lie to me that you have. Therefore, your calculations are false.

I also double checked on mob's hp, on averege they seem to have around ~600hp. Your initial chain can do 410 damage not counting help from henchmen and minions that enough to get the target way below 50% hp, then you hit 180 with FH! Target is dead in just over a second, if not then henchies, minions and remaining EVAS chain will finish it off in under a second.

So, it's too early for you to drink champagne, I have proven you wrong.